From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #71 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, October 15 2002 Volume 08 : Number 071 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin RE: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin [scribes]: Re: stretching parchment [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin placement Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin RE: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Re: [scribes]: stretching parchment Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin RE: [scribes]: stretching parchment Re: [scribes]: Re: stretching parchment Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Re: [scribes]: stretching parchment ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:16:56 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin At 09:54 AM 10/15/2002 -0500, gvantass@interaccess.com wrote: >Slightly off-topic for "scribal" stuff... > >Being that I am not Catholic (or any denomination Christian, for that >matter), I'm not really up on prayers. > >Can anyone give me a hint as to the "documentation" for the Lort's >Prayer? Meaning, first recorded location and time period that it >was "used" by the Church. From the Catholic Encyclopedia: Although the Latin term oratio dominica is of early date, the phrase "Lord's Prayer" does not seem to have been generally familiar in England before the Reformation. During the Middle Ages the "Our Father" was always said in Latin, even by the uneducated. Hence it was then most commonly known as the Pater noster. The name "Lord's prayer" attaches to it not because Jesus Christ used the prayer Himself (for to ask forgiveness of sin would have implied the acknowledgment of guilt) but because He taught it to His disciples. Many points of interest are suggested by the history and employment of the Our Father. With regard to the English text now in use among Catholics, we may note that this is derived not from the Rheims Testament but from a version imposed upon England in the reign of Henry VIII, and employed in the 1549 and 1552 editions of the "Book of Common Prayer". From this our present Catholic text differs only in two very slight particulars: "Which art" has been modernized into "who art", and "in earth" into "on earth". The version itself, which accords pretty closely with the translation in Tyndale's New Testament, no doubt owed its general acceptance to an ordinance of 1541 according to which "his Grace perceiving now the great diversity of the translations (of the Pater noster etc.) hath willed them all to be taken up, and instead of them hath caused an uniform translation of the said Pater noster, Ave, Creed, etc. to be set forth, willing all his loving subjects to learn and use the same and straitly commanding all parsons, vicars and curates to read and teach the same to their parishioners". As a result the version in question became universally familiar to the nation, and though the Rheims Testament, in 1581, and King James's translators, in 1611, provided somewhat different renderings of Matthew 6:9-13, the older form was retained for their prayers both by Protestants and Catholics alike. Smiles, Despina - ---------- "Laws are sand, customs are rock. Laws can be evaded and punishment escaped, but an openly transgressed custom brings sure punishment." Mark Twain =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:11:58 -0200 From: alienor Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin - --------------050400060403050800030404 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can find the Vulgate on line at: http://www.biblegateway.org/cgi-bin/bible?language=latin The Pater Noster was certainly included in the format of the Book of Hours (see Painted Prayers by Roger S. Wieck, for the typical format). And it would have been in Latin until around 1400. After that a few were written in French and English. The Dutch Horae were translated in the late middle ages and vernacular actually became the standard throughout the 15th and 16th centuries. (see again Wieck, pages 9 and 10). If there is anything else you would need, you can email me. I have Painted Prayers with me today. Cheers, Alienor - --------------050400060403050800030404 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can find the Vulgate on line at:
http://www.biblegateway.org/cgi-bin/bible?language=latin
 
The Pater Noster was certainly included in the format
of the Book of Hours (see Painted Prayers by Roger S.
Wieck, for the typical format).  And it would have
been in Latin until around 1400.
After that a few were written in French and
English.  The Dutch Horae were translated in the late
middle ages and vernacular actually became the
standard throughout the 15th and 16th centuries.
(see again Wieck, pages 9 and 10).

If there is anything else you would need, you can
email me.  I have Painted Prayers with me today.

Cheers,
Alienor
- --------------050400060403050800030404-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:20:37 EDT From: BessdeNevell@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin - --part1_32.2ea24d9b.2add8c45_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://home.earthlink.net/~thesaurus/Thesaurus.html Multiple Prayers with Latin translations and documentation can be found at the above link. Have fun! ~Bess Madame Elizabeth de Nevell Maison de Nevell - http://vantassle.freetcp.com - --part1_32.2ea24d9b.2add8c45_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://home.earthlink.net/~thesaurus/Thesaurus.html

Multiple Prayers with Latin translations and documentation  can be found at the above link.

Have fun!

~Bess

Madame Elizabeth de Nevell
Maison de Nevell - http://vantassle.freetcp.com - --part1_32.2ea24d9b.2add8c45_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:36:08 -0400 From: "Christopher Bogs" Subject: RE: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin It's also not the "standard" version that I've seen everywhere else; several words are different: Pater noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen. YIS, Christoph - -----Original Message----- From: owner-scribes@castle.org [mailto:owner-scribes@castle.org]On Behalf Of Lyle H. Gray Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:16 AM To: fwydiva@telusplanet.net Cc: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 fwydiva@telusplanet.net wrote: > Greetings, Margareta et al... > > I can't help you with whether the Lord's Prayer was in a BoH, > but here's the Latin: > > Pater noster qui es in coelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum, > adveniat regnum, fiat voluntas tua in terris sicut in coelis, > panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, ac remitte nobis > debita nostra, sicut nos remittimus debitoribus nostris, et > ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo, quia > tuum est regnum, potentia et gloria in secula. Amen > > In Service, > Bebhinn Bebhinn, what's your source for this Latin version? It's got the separate closing included, which is unusual. Normally it just ends with "set libera nos a malo." =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:17:32 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: stretching parchment - --part1_21.25cec329.2add8b8c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So long as you leave a wide margin around the edge of a page and don't use a soaking wet technique to paint a large area there is no need to attach a piece of parchment or vellum to a board. The margin acts as a built in stretching frame and will maintain the necessary tension. As the vellum dries it will return to shape. When you wet a piece of vellum you may actually be damaging it. It can raise the nap that the final scraping has smoothed down and if a whitener has been added after scraping, wetting it may leave the vellum splotchy. If the vellum has been overstretched in processing, wetting it may cause it to shrink so much that no amount of staples or tacks will be able to hold it to a board. > >speaking of parchments, has anyone had any experience *making* parchment? > >any pointers to resources etc? > >Just something I would like to have a go at sometime in the future. > > There was a Vellum Making class held at Pennsic this year -- I forwarded your missives to Aengus MacBain ... the teacher of the class at Pennsic. He is not currently on this list. I am his lady - and the teacher who took over the class briefly when Aengus had to leave ;-). I have made deer vellum on my own and helped Aengus with his projects occasionally. I can answer some questions about vellum making... Aengus is the one who did all of the research, so I can't give you specifics on where to look for the info. I do know it is out there and it took him about a year of research before he felt ready to try making vellum on his own. Making vellum is time consuming, physically demanding (especially on the arms, hands and shoulders), smelly, messy and not for the faint hearted. The results IMHO are well worth all of the time and effort I put into making it. YMMV Aengus is in the process of writing a treatise on vellum making. He is also planning on teaching a class at AEthelmearc Academy in November. It won't be hands on like the one at Pennsic due to the time available for the classes, but for those who can attend and have an interest in making vellum it should be more than enough to get them started in the right direction. I have been working on vellum as a scribe for over 7 years. Having now made some and understanding why it responds the way it does makes working on it even easier. Then again there is the thrill of using paints *and* vellum I made myself .... plus the added benefit of being able to give out vellum as largesse :-) Yvianne AEthelmearc - --part1_21.25cec329.2add8b8c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So long as you leave a wide margin around the edge of a page and don't use a soaking wet technique to paint a large area there is no need to attach a piece of parchment or vellum to a board. The margin acts as a built in stretching frame and will maintain the necessary tension. As the vellum dries it will return to shape.

When you wet a piece of vellum you may actually be damaging it. It can raise the nap that the final scraping has smoothed down and if a whitener has been added after scraping, wetting it may leave the vellum splotchy. If the vellum has been overstretched in processing, wetting it may cause it to shrink so much that no amount of staples or tacks will be able to hold it to a board.

>speaking of parchments, has anyone had any experience *making* parchment?
>any pointers to resources etc?
>Just something I would like to have a go at sometime in the future.

There was a Vellum Making class held at Pennsic this year --


I forwarded your missives to Aengus MacBain ... the teacher of the class at Pennsic. He is not currently on this list. I am his lady - and the teacher who took over the class briefly when Aengus had to leave ;-). I have made deer vellum on my own and helped Aengus with his projects occasionally. I can answer some questions about vellum making... Aengus is the one who did all of the research, so I can't give you specifics on where to look for the info. I do know it is out there and it took him about a year of research before he felt ready to try making vellum on his own.

Making vellum is time consuming, physically demanding (especially on the arms, hands and shoulders), smelly, messy and not for the faint hearted. The results IMHO are well worth all of the time and effort I put into making it. YMMV

Aengus is in the process of writing a treatise on vellum making. He is also planning on teaching a class at AEthelmearc Academy in November. It won't be hands on like the one at Pennsic due to the time available for the classes, but for those who can attend and have an interest in making vellum it should be more than enough to get them started in the right direction.

I have been working on vellum as a scribe for over 7 years. Having now made some and understanding why it responds the way it does makes working on it even easier. Then again there is the thrill of using paints *and* vellum I made myself .... plus the added benefit of being able to give out vellum as largesse :-)

Yvianne
AEthelmearc - --part1_21.25cec329.2add8b8c_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:23:19 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin placement >http://skell.org/SKELL/dailylife.htm is a website with information about >daily life in a Benidictine house. It places the Lords Prayer at Vespers. > >Smiles, >Despina > > From the website: > >GLOSSARY >Nocturns: >Latin: Nocturnus "by night" >The first service in the Liturgy of Hours. Prayed at the beginning of the >new day between midnight and daybreak. >Matins >Latin: Matutinus "morning" >Chanted or recited in choir at the end of the night, before dawn. >Prime >Latin: Prima "first" >Consisted of a hymn, three psalms, a Scripture reading, versicles and >responses and a concluding prayer. >Terce >Latin: Tertia "third" >Celebrated at the third hour of the Liturgy of Hours. Originating from the >early practice of commemorating different moments in Christ's Passion at >the third, sixth and ninth hours of the day. Terce was associated with the >Crucifixion. >Sext >Latin: Sext "sixth" >Prayed at the "sixth hour", roughly around noon. A brief service with >little variation in text and song. >None >Latin: Nona hora "ninth hour" >Marked the ninth hour from dawn. Another brief service with little >variation in text and song. >Vespers >Latin: Vespers "evening star" >Celebrated in the early evening as daylight ended. Included a hymn, two >psalms, a canticle, a Scripture reading, a proper responsory, the >Magnificat with its antiphon, a litany of intercessory prayer, the Lord's >Prayer, and a concluding blessing. >Compline >Latin: Complere "to complete" >The night service that signalled the end of the day. Consisted of a short >lesson, confession, three psalms and responsory, hymn, canticle and Marian >Antiphon. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:24:33 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin >Bebhinn, what's your source for this Latin version? It's got the >separate closing included, which is unusual. Normally it just >ends with "set libera nos a malo." The differences are in from where you get your Pater Noster. Smiles, Despina Matt.6:9-13 9. Pater noster qui in caelis es/ sanctificetur nomen tuum/ 10. veniat regnum tuum/ fiat voluntas tua sicut in caelo et in terra/ 11. panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie/ 12. et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimisimus debitoribus nostris/ 13. et ne inducas nos in temptationem/ sed libera nos a malo/ Luke 11:2-4 2. Pater sanctificetur nomen tuum adveniat regnum tuum/ 3. Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis cotidie/ 4. Et dimitte nobis peccata nostra siquidem et ipsi dimittimus omni debenti nobis et ne nos inducas in temptationem/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:27:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Lyle H. Gray" Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin > >Bebhinn, what's your source for this Latin version? It's got the > >separate closing included, which is unusual. Normally it just > >ends with "set libera nos a malo." > > The differences are in from where you get your Pater Noster. > Smiles, > Despina > > Matt.6:9-13 9. Pater noster qui in caelis es/ sanctificetur nomen tuum/ 10. > veniat regnum tuum/ fiat voluntas tua sicut in caelo et in terra/ 11. panem > nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie/ 12. et dimitte nobis debita > nostra sicut et nos dimisimus debitoribus nostris/ 13. et ne inducas nos in > temptationem/ sed libera nos a malo/ > > Luke 11:2-4 2. Pater sanctificetur nomen tuum adveniat regnum tuum/ 3. > Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis cotidie/ 4. Et dimitte nobis peccata > nostra siquidem et ipsi dimittimus omni debenti nobis et ne nos inducas in > temptationem/ Yes, but neither of these includes this passage: > quia tuum est regnum, potentia et gloria in secula. which I believe comes from the Revelation to John... =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:36:20 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin >Yes, but neither of these includes this passage: > > > quia tuum est regnum, potentia et gloria in secula. > >which I believe comes from the Revelation to John... http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%2527s_Prayer Gives pretty good explanations for a number of endings to the prayer. Mostly, it's a sect thing, if I understand correctly. This website also has a version of the prayer supposedly written in 350 in Gothic. Smiles, Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:39:16 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: RE: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Another reason for the mulitple endings..... Smiles, Despina Lastly may be noted the generally received opinion that the rendering of the last clause should be "deliver us from the evil one", a change which justifies the use of "but" in stead of "and" and practically converts the two last clauses into one and the same petition. The doxology "for Thine is the Kingdom", etc., which appears in the Greek textus receptus and has been adopted in the later editions of the "Book of Common Prayer", is undoubtedly an interpolation. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:43:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Lyle H. Gray" Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin > >Bebhinn, what's your source for this Latin version? It's got the > >separate closing included, which is unusual. Normally it just > >ends with "set libera nos a malo." > > The differences are in from where you get your Pater Noster. Which is partly what I asked in the first place. I wanted to know specifically where Bebhinn got that version of the prayer. Not where that version may _originally_ have come from. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:47:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Martha Palotay Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin With the ending ("for thine is the kingdom..."), Matthew 6:9-13. Without the ending (ends with "deliver us from evil"), Luke 11:2-4. So time period would be anytime after those gospels get written (100 A.D. or so?), or even earlier for those who heard it in person. I don't know whether the Lord's Prayer would be in a book of hours (anyone have a complete facsimile handy that they can actually read?), but I believe the written version would usually be the Matthew one. During the Mass, they use the Luke version. (Which gets very annoying to the occasional protestant who is attending: "Hey, wait a second, you're not finished yet!") The documentation/origin question becomes much more interesting (read: harder to determine) when it comes to the Ave Maria; there's nothing even remotely resembling it in the Bible. HTH, Márti - --- gvantass@interaccess.com wrote: > Slightly off-topic for "scribal" stuff... > > Being that I am not Catholic (or any denomination Christian, for that > matter), I'm not really up on prayers. > > Can anyone give me a hint as to the "documentation" for the Lort's > Prayer? Meaning, first recorded location and time period that it > was "used" by the Church. > > Pax, > Br. Conchobar > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: fwydiva@telusplanet.net > Date: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:46 am > Subject: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin > > > Greetings, Margareta et al... > > > > I can't help you with whether the Lord's Prayer was in a BoH, but > > here's the > > Latin: > > > > Pater noster qui es in coelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum, adveniat > > regnum,fiat voluntas tua in terris sicut in coelis, panem nostrum > > quotidianum da > > nobis hodie, ac remitte nobis debita nostra, sicut nos remittimus > > debitoribus nostris, et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera > > nos a > > malo, quia tuum est regnum, potentia et gloria in secula. Amen > > > > In Service, > > Bebhinn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:51:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Lyle H. Gray" Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil wrote: > At 09:54 AM 10/15/2002 -0500, gvantass@interaccess.com wrote: > >Slightly off-topic for "scribal" stuff... > > > >Being that I am not Catholic (or any denomination Christian, for that > >matter), I'm not really up on prayers. > > > >Can anyone give me a hint as to the "documentation" for the Lort's > >Prayer? Meaning, first recorded location and time period that it > >was "used" by the Church. If you're wondering when the _oratio dominica_ ("Lord's Prayer") was first used (as opposed to the English version), see http://home.earthlink.net/~thesaurus/thesaurus/Basics/OraDom.html =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:56:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Lyle H. Gray" Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Martha Palotay wrote: > With the ending ("for thine is the kingdom..."), Matthew > 6:9-13. Without the ending (ends with "deliver us from > evil"), Luke 11:2-4. So time period would be anytime after > those gospels get written (100 A.D. or so?), or even earlier > for those who heard it in person. I've seen a reference that says that says that that ending ("for thine is the kingdom...") was added to Matthew 6:9-13 at a much later date. It isn't in my copy. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:57:34 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: stretching parchment Did your teacher have you "scud" the hides on a board before you hung them up? There is a lot of grease in a hide, especially a sheep skin, and it needs to be squeegeed out. RanthulfR Christopher Bogs wrote: > > >speaking of parchments, has anyone had any experience *making* parchment? > >any pointers to resources etc? > >Just something I would like to have a go at sometime in the future. > > There was a Vellum Making class held at Pennsic this year -- it wasn't on > the main schedule, as the presenter didn't decide to do it until the last > minute. Still, there were about 15 people who signed up (with a class size > of 8 or so) and I think nine of us showed up, so we all got to participate. > It was not as difficult as I'd imagined; in fact it's quite easy, though it > is very labor-intensive. > > We started with a goat-hide which had been prepped with lime and dehaired > (I'll try to find the email link for the teacher, who is willing to email > handouts on the whole process, including the preparation) and stretched it > on a frame built out of standard 2-inch by 4-inch lumber (what you'd frame a > house with, don't know the Oz equivalent); it was four boards attached in a > square by means of mortise-and-tenon joints, and each board had a series of > holes drilled into it at about 6-inch intervals (~15 cm). We did this as > Master RanthulfR described -- we used pebbles from a river to make little > "pockets" in the edges of the skin, and looped lengths of twine around the > pockets in a "lark's head" knot. This is slippery but with nine hands it > went quickly. The twine was then looped through the holes in the frame and > the whole skin was stretched as tightly as possible. > > We then went to work scraping on it with a variety of knives. There's a > type of curved-blade knife that works best but they are very hard to come > by; you'd probably have to find a smith to make a custom one for you -- > fortunately not too difficult in most areas of the SCA. We found that a > large butcher's-type knife with a slightly curved blade worked the best. > The important part is not to nick the skin while you're scraping it, as this > will result in a hole in your parchment. > > You scrape both sides of the skin; the object is to remove all the debris > that is attached to the skin. There is a lot of membranous and fatty > material there, and it takes a lot of scraping to get it all off. It will > usually begin to dry while you're doing this; it's important to keep it > moist while you're scraping. > > Eventually both sides will be clean and you can let it dry. This usually > takes overnight. The skin will shrink A LOT. Quite a few of the laces you > used to tie it to the frame will break; it's far better that they break than > for the frame to do so, or for the skin to rip! > > Before removing it from the frame, you can prep the surface using pumice, > chalk, etc. It's much better to do this before it's off the frame, we were > told -- our teacher learned this the hard way! > > Once it's prepped, you can take it off the frame and cut the pebbles off, > and cut the vellum to size. > > As I said, I'll see if I can't track down a copy of the handouts and I'll > offer to email them out once I have them. I can't wait to try it on my own, > even if the neighbors look at me strangely.. > > ------------------------------------------ > Ld. Christopher Jameson / Christopher Bogs > Bhakail, East Kingdom / Philadelphia, PA > http://pobox.upenn.edu/~cbogs/scriptorium > ------------------------------------------ > Don't tell my parents I'm in the SCA... > they think I'm running guns & drugs for a biker gang. > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts: Original Art & Prints for sale! Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:12:28 -0700 From: Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Martha Palotay wrote: > The documentation/origin question becomes much > more interesting (read: harder > to determine) when it comes to the Ave Maria; > there's nothing even remotely > resembling it in the Bible. At least the first part of the Ave Maria is from Luke 1:28. Branwen ferch Emrys The Mists, the West =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:42:28 -0400 From: "Christopher Bogs" Subject: RE: [scribes]: stretching parchment >Did your teacher have you "scud" the hides on a board before you hung >them up? There is a lot of grease in a hide, especially a sheep skin, >and it needs to be squeegeed out. I don't remember doing anything like that -- Yvianne, do you know if the prep process removes most of the grease, or what? I don't remember it being particularly greasy, either before stretching it, or after it dried. I can kind of visualize the process, though -- might be something to experiment with. We did "learn by doing" that leaving the tail on the skin until after drying is a bad idea -- it not only elongates the drying time because of the density of the skin at that area, but the tail bobs and wags disconcertingly when you're scraping the hide. :) Christoph - ------------------------------------------ Ld. Christopher Jameson / Christopher Bogs Bhakail, East Kingdom / Philadelphia, PA http://pobox.upenn.edu/~cbogs - ------------------------------------------------- "See, when Mom tells me I can't pillage, you can be the voice of REASON!" -- Millicent Mudd =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:34:07 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: stretching parchment As Lady Yvainne has just written, I want to add some words about illumination on parchment and the stretching thing. When I was responding to the question about stretching parchment I was thinking of damaged parchment that needed to be stretched flat because of cockling. I was not thinking of people using it as a general preparation for painting. I am a formally trained artist, and yes, we were taught to stretch watercolor paper before painting on it. The reason is because watercolor techniques are usually very wet techniques, and that relaxes unstretched paper. However, those same wet watercolor techniques are 100% inappropriate for medieval book illumination on parchment. Yup, it is wrong, out, destructive, won't look right, -DON"T DO IT!!!! Yes, that from the guy who says there are always exceptions to every rule. Why? Because medieval book parchment was thin and very susceptible to cockling by direct application of excessive moisture. Hey, I know some of you have bought parchment from modern suppliers, and that it was probably pretty thick and could stand some serious water on it, but that is not the same thing. If you look at real medieval leaves you will see they are usually very thin like paper. Even the thicker samples are still prone to damage by wet techniques. Notice how prominent the brush stroke is in medieval illumination. You can do thin "wash" like applications, but not as you would with watercolor. The "washes" can be laid in with strokes next to each other and blended after having a chance to dry. If you look closely at the real ones, you will see that large fields of color are rare, when you do see them they are often streaky or are opaque masses, and usually the field color is patterned over with diapering (which camouflages the streakiness). Now I know some of you are using watercolor paper in your work. Well, that's your choice, but watercolor paper looks and works differently than medieval paper and very differently from parchment. It is often textured (bad for writing and looks wrong), but the big difference is that it has less "size" in it than good paper for illuminating (size is the word for the glue that binds the paper fibers together and makes it able to withstand abrasion and water effects). This makes it much more absorbent, leading to more bleed, and it makes the paper surface more vulnerable to fibers dislodging on your pen. You will use more paint, and colors will look more faded unless applied in mass tone. What does this mean in practical terms? If you want a medieval effect learn to use smaller brush strokes (maybe learn to work smaller) and resist the urge to fill large areas with big floods of wet color. There is no reason your page should cockle much -if at all- if you use the right technique. RanthulfR - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts: Original Art & Prints for sale! Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:42:59 -0700 From: fwydiva@telusplanet.net Subject: Re: [scribes]: "Lord's Prayer" in Latin Hi All, The text that I posted was from this *totally unreliable* online source, since I'm at work and don't have access to my resources. http://incolor.inebraska.com/stuart/lp_lat.htm A Google search on "Lord's Prayer Latin" came up with this, though, which is kind of interesting... http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/lordpray.htm It's been ::cough:: quite a while since I attended Mass at all, let alone one where we used Latin, so I'll admit to being *quite* rusty... :) Bebhinn =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:49:32 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: stretching parchment Well, I had just processed some sheep hides and was very dissatisfied with the results when I had a conversation with Master Balrick from Ealdormere. He asked if I had done this, and I had some dumb look on my face having never heard of it before. I mean, hey, none of the resources I had mentioned this at all! He explained that you need to lay out the skin on a smooth surface and use a flat scraper made of wood (or I imagine plastic works fine, and it should have rounded corners IMHO) to squeegee out the dirt and extra oil. He said you can actually see it come out. That was a long time ago. RanthulfR KAHLENR0SE@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/15/2002 11:09:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, > randyaf@provide.net writes: > > << Did your teacher have you "scud" the hides on a board before you hung > them up? There is a lot of grease in a hide, especially a sheep skin, > and it needs to be squeegeed out. >> > How do you do that? > Kahlen > > Work like you don't need the money; dance like no one is watching; sing like > no one is listening; love like you've never been hurt; and live every day as > if it were your last. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts: Original Art & Prints for sale! Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #71 ****************************