From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V1 #66 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, February 17 1998 Volume 01 : Number 066 In this issue: [scribes]: How to critique [scribes]: Re: Re: How to critique Re: [scribes]: Re: How to critique Re: [scribes]: How (and when) to critique? [scribes]: Re: Mistakes Re: [scribes]: Re: Re: How to critique Re: [scribes]: Re: How to critique ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:58:54 -0600 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: How to critique >Part of the whole issue of "critquing without discouraging" comes down to the >fact that we have scribes who are really at a very beginning level of >developing their skills who are tackling difficult and complex projects. So I >guess the related question for Laurels and heads of scriptoria is this: How >do you tell people gently that they really need to practice more before they >do their first scroll? Even (maybe especially) if it's for their best friend >or significant other? > >Luighseach nic Lochlainn >Dreiburgen, Caid > For what it's worth: You are right, this is one of the most difficult situations to deal with. Especially since beginners are the most easily discouraged. They often already feel their work is 'not good enough' (It's very hard to convince beginners to enter the A&S Fairs for this reason.) Offer to spend time practicing with them. Any task is more fun if someone else is participating. It is also easier to take advise while you are working together on an equal footing. Spending time one-on-one can give you the opportunity to find out how strong their feelings are about tackling that special project or first scroll and how receptive they are to the idea of waiting or simplifying the design, etc. The hardest advise to follow is: let them try. If they want to do the whole scroll themselves, or tackle a really complex project, let them. Their feelings are probably pretty strong if they refuse assistance. Even the poorest work can be given as a promissory. If the scroll is for their best friend or significant other, the recipient will likely enjoy the fact that someone special made it more than worrying about the skill level. As the scribe improves, they may 'replace' the original scroll with a 'nicer' version down the road. (I have offered to re-make a scroll I did when I first started out. I can now see all the flaws (cringe) but the recipient refuses to part with it for sentimental value. Since the, I made a scroll for the same person on a different occasion which I am much happier with. Now they have a 'beginner' scroll and a nice scroll. Makes a good contrast.) Hope this helps. Ellen of the Scholars Baile na Scolairi Cindy Baker Bloomington, IL cebaker@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:53:00 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Re: How to critique In a message dated 2/17/98 9:54:18 AM, Luiseach@aol.com wrote: > How >do you tell people gently that they really need to practice more before they >do their first scroll? Even (maybe especially) if it's for their best friend >or significant other? > >Luighseach nic Lochlainn >Dreiburgen, Caid I gave my first attempt to my lord on Valentine's Day several years ago as a "charter" to fight as my champion. Although I have offered to replace this with something that doesn't send shivers up my back every time I see it, he will not entertain the thought. The sentiment is more valuable than the actual piece. If it really bothers you...You can turn any critique or criticism into a class. Everyone learns, you're not singling out anyone. Teach a class on common novice mistakes, layout and design, painting diaper patterns...whatever it is you notice that is making you cringe so. Use *lots* of your own mistakes, and those of other accomplished scribes, to demonstrate. I have also used this method to get information to someone who I knew might not take a critique from me well, but would take a class I taught. Perhaps you could supply the scriptorium with a blank and "in the Medieval tradition" the scribes are to copy this. They can experiment with different ways to copy main elements of a scroll and change it here and there to make it unique. After they do this, the blank is theirs to do with as they wish. Examples: A diaper patterned background with rough figures and let them choose the final design and how to paint the clothes and hair on the figures. An elaborate opening capital that needs painting and white work. Acanthus border that need to be both painted and shaded. Gothic bars and vines without the ivy leaves There are lots more if you think about it. But the main idea is to give them just enough of a framework to give confidence, but not enough to have done all of the work for them. Don't confuse this with pre-prints. I do this myself if I've done a scroll that I'm not happy with how it turns out, I *really* like something on it and want to do it again for pure enjoyment or I need a scroll in a hurry. I copy parts of old layouts and change the rest to suit. Plus...it is very period to copy. The measure of a scribe's skill in producing pages for books of hours was to reproduce designs exactly rather than be unique. Just another off the wall teaching technique from... Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc Butler PA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:09:20 -0500 From: PETERSR@spiegel.becltd.com (Peters, Rise J.) Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: How to critique Miri wrote: >>Mistakes happen, and will on every scroll. The problem I've had most consistently trying to work on anything (even learning new hands) at a scriptorum is that when I try to write while anyone is talking, I make mistakes. I repeat letters or omit them, or repeat or omit whole phrases. My preference for dealing with this would be to put on some nice period music and have people not talk. But is that realistic? Should I just resign myself to never try and do anything verbal (painting seems to work ok) with others around? What do the rest of you do? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:46:38 EST From: FITCHYBEAR@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: How (and when) to critique? In a message dated 98-02-16 06:02:52 EST, lindap@ipass.net writes: << Someone said something on this list about teaching a scribe to be objective about their own work - how do you do that? >> I think that as a scribe continues with their work they end up becomming more objective about their work......they see what others are doing and learn more techniques and as such their technique improves. Have you ever talked to a scribe who doesn't know where each and every mistake on the scroll they did was? When teaching new scribes, I let them pick up the ball and run with it. If they ask for advice on balance or adornments, I give it. I've had scribes do mock-ups and ask me how period is this? When I tell them they have said "oh well, I really like the design, I'll do it anyway", and have had others say " why didn't you tell me?" to which I reply, "we were looking at this style and all of a sudden you went off on this tangent and I couldn't get you back..........now, what have you learned?" I am also a firm believer in sketchbook work where you take elements of the scroll you are working on and work them out in your sketchbook, then put the brush to them there to work out technique, colour etc. I find this works well with my students as it gives the immediate gratification that they need that would otherwise cause them to jump in with both feet only to find that they have landed in not so nice stuff. My wife who thought she couldn't do scribal stuff, has had her first scroll handed out and has three more in process. Right now, she is doing basic stuff but nice and clean, while farming the calligraphy out to others. She is already doing QC and has axed a couple of scrolls where she didn't like the product she was getting. Right now, our buggest trouble is fighting over work space.......JimBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:10:40 -0500 From: ab873@jepms4.jep.cummins.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Mistakes PETERSR@spiegel.becltd.com wrote: Miri wrote: >>Mistakes happen, and will on every scroll. >My preference for dealing with this would be to put on some nice period >music and have people not talk. But is that realistic? Should I just >resign myself to never try and do anything verbal (painting seems to work >ok) with others around? What do the rest of you do? I hate to say it, but yes, resign yourself to solitude. I have to have complete quiet and no interuptions and I *still* have to check almost every letter and word. (I think the best part of AEthelmearc going Kingdom is that I never have to write the word "Priness" again! I don't know why that one was tough, but that "c" *always* wanted to mutate into an "e"). There are a few people who can do calligraphy in public and a few who seem to take mistakes with better temperment than I, but I think most people do that part of the scroll alone. I figure that if I am blocking everyone out enough to not make a mistake, then I am probably rotten company anyway. Do your calligraphy first, and once it is clean, do the painting in your group. That way your friends will never know if you use naughty words when you mess up! ;-) Dorinda Courtenay (Dorinda Courtine-White) Shire of Heronter, AEthelmearc Jamestown, NY ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:56:15 -0500 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Re: How to critique (snip) > Don't confuse this with pre-prints. I do this myself if I've done a scroll > that I'm not happy with how it turns out, I *really* like something on it and > want to do it again for pure enjoyment or I need a scroll in a hurry. I copy > parts of old layouts and change the rest to suit. Plus...it is very period to > copy. The measure of a scribe's skill in producing pages for books of hours > was to reproduce designs exactly rather than be unique. > > Just another off the wall teaching technique from... > > Eibhlin ni Chaoimh > AEthelmearc > Butler PA I keep a folder of various elements I've traced to use over again on other scrolls. Miri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:01:44 -0500 From: Heather Swann Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: How to critique Peters, Rise J. wrote: > > Miri wrote: > > >>Mistakes happen, and will on every scroll. > > The problem I've had most consistently trying to work on anything (even > learning new hands) at a scriptorum is that when I try to write while anyone > is talking, I make mistakes. I repeat letters or omit them, or repeat or > omit whole phrases. > > My preference for dealing with this would be to put on some nice period > music and have people not talk. But is that realistic? Should I just > resign myself to never try and do anything verbal (painting seems to work > ok) with others around? What do the rest of you do? First of all, I never go to a scriptorium to do scrolls. I sit at home with a CD or a videotape on and work alone. Second, for the calligraphy portion, I do the calligraphy on graph paper with the correct spacing, and I check the spelling. Then I use a light table to go over it. That way, I don't accidentally leave out letters or words on the real thing. The only sort of thing I'll work on at a scriptorium these days is layout and tracing. Miri ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V1 #66 ****************************